Law Suit Filed Against Collier Anesthesia and Wolford College Nurse Anesthesia Program

Originally Posted by jwk

It's interesting to me that this is just coming up now. SRNA's are used as free labor in schools all over the country - it's hardly a new thing. Certainly schools that are regionally accredited with university affiliations do the same thing, right?

Two things are different here. The relationship between the school and the anesthesia group, and the extent to which the students are apparently used to fill the roles of staff. All health care profession trainees are used as free staff without exception. But when the anesthesia group is also your program manager it may be best not to have your students working overtime purely so the cases are getting done....that ain't their intended clinical function.

Originally Posted by dmoney

I'd respond with a coherent argument but I'm too tired from being overworked in clinical. lol
That said, Wolford is not a bad school. It has been a target for criticism for a number of years, but in the end their students pass boards and get jobs so all the internet chatter ends up being pretty baseless. Haters gonna hate.

Not "a bad school" compared to what?

Originally Posted by MmacFN

Hey

I do not agree that students should be paid, which includes medical students/residents.

I am all for students being used as staff because i believe there is a degree of learning that happens at that time which cannot happen when someone is in the room.

I dont feel using a student as staff is wrong. This is how you learn and its the trade off for the education you are getting. When it gets to the point that the student is working for a group greater than 40 hours a week it might be a consideration to provide some financial benefit to that student and it should be a choice for that student.

Mike, I mimic ur thoughts, I wish I went to a program in which SRNA's got that kind of an opportunity. We had a 1:1 supervision of each student, which may be good (rarely) or bad depending on who you are with. Being by themselves with a resource person available is great as it gives some thinking space.

Well here is the thing.

So far we know this.

- Wolford is owned by MDAs (bad)
- The MDAs are the entirety of the Board of Directors for the school (Bad)
- The primary clinical sites are contracts held by the MDA grp which owns the school (bad)
- Students have reported being doubled up in rooms and only being allowed to "assist" with hearts (bad)
- Students have reported not getting PNBs or CVLs to any degree and some not getting it at all (bad)
- The school is not regionally accredited and therefore degrees from there are meaningless (not recognized) by any other institution.

So, what are the upsides exactly?

Originally Posted by dmoney

I'd respond with a coherent argument but I'm too tired from being overworked in clinical. lol
That said, Wolford is not a bad school. It has been a target for criticism for a number of years, but in the end their students pass boards and get jobs so all the internet chatter ends up being pretty baseless. Haters gonna hate.

The clinical experience that mimics the closest to real world requirements is actually a "good" experience... Wanting to be prepared upon graduation, receiving that experience, but demand someone pay you for preparing you seems a bit odd to me...

That's BS. If your considering to SRNA school you are well aware of all the financial, physicial, emotional, spiritual demands (on the resident and family as well) that are forthcoming in the rigorous training ahead. You go to train and learn..period. The SRNA should NEVER be counted as staff. No paycheck. IMHO, you leave each day stuffing your pockets with whatever remaining dignity you have, go home, read, eat, sleep, rinse, repeat. Hopefully learning something along the way. That is the law of the land. Whoever is scheduling the staff for the OR rooms needs to dial themselves back in..maybe it's too late for that now...

I would hate to have trained at only one hospital. Seeing how other people do things puts so many more tools in the tool box

Their clinical experience is subpar. Imagine being on one month of peds the whole program, all they do is ENT and the docs are on vacation for most of the month of December, 3 cases total. Real yes, adequate far from it. There are multiple instances of fudging numbers to graduate just from the one student I know well. They're forced to do it under threat of being dropped from the program or repeating a semester. If you're looking for bread and butter CRNA's you're fine, but someone to do your 3am crani not so much.

that example of crappy grads d/t crappy experience applies to more than this program....

Originally Posted by BigMAC - Army

Not "a bad school" compared to what?

Exactly my point. How do you compare? Unless you came here and withdrew due to the quality of the education or know a large enough number of graduates from Wolford how can anyone comment other than via hearsay and surmising?

Originally Posted by MmacFN

Well here is the thing.

So far we know this.

- Wolford is owned by MDAs (bad)
- The MDAs are the entirety of the Board of Directors for the school (Bad)
- The primary clinical sites are contracts held by the MDA grp which owns the school (bad)
- Students have reported being doubled up in rooms and only being allowed to "assist" with hearts (bad)
- Students have reported not getting PNBs or CVLs to any degree and some not getting it at all (bad)
- The school is not regionally accredited and therefore degrees from there are meaningless (not recognized) by any other institution.

So, what are the upsides exactly?

Being owned by MDA's may sound horrible (I guess), but they are good teachers. There are plenty of opportunities to work independently and from what I have seen so far the MDA's are there to assist when it is needed, not to run the show. I think in the end it doesn't really matter who owns the school but how it is run. It is not much different from saying a group of anesthesia providers is bad because they are CRNA's. The question that should be asked is how well do they do their job.
There are plenty of opportunities to do all kinds of cases. And really, if you took a research class, you would know that without some type of representative sample- data from a couple random people are really meaningless. Judging a school through the internet is really just an exercise in futility.
Accreditation- It is in the process. The school has not been denied, but it just takes time to get the application through the process. Regardless of any accreditation, at the end of the day you do not need regional accreditation to get a job as a CRNA. And isn't that the main goal here? Plus, when it comes to taking school to the next level, the truth is that schools are made to make money. I know of only one person who applied to further their education who was denied due to lack of regional accreditation (and it was from another school in FL, possibly with a bone to pick lol). Other than that students have continued their education elsewhere without issue. Still not seeing any issues here. Not that it's god's gift to CRNA schools, but I don't think it deserves all this negative publicity.

Originally Posted by dmoney

Being owned by MDA's may sound horrible (I guess), but they are good teachers. There are plenty of opportunities to work independently and from what I have seen so far the MDA's are there to assist when it is needed, not to run the show. I think in the end it doesn't really matter who owns the school but how it is run. It is not much different from saying a group of anesthesia providers is bad because they are CRNA's. The question that should be asked is how well do they do their job.
There are plenty of opportunities to do all kinds of cases. And really, if you took a research class, you would know that without some type of representative sample- data from a couple random people are really meaningless. Judging a school through the internet is really just an exercise in futility.
Accreditation- It is in the process. The school has not been denied, but it just takes time to get the application through the process. Regardless of any accreditation, at the end of the day you do not need regional accreditation to get a job as a CRNA. And isn't that the main goal here? Plus, when it comes to taking school to the next level, the truth is that schools are made to make money. I know of only one person who applied to further their education who was denied due to lack of regional accreditation (and it was from another school in FL, possibly with a bone to pick lol). Other than that students have continued their education elsewhere without issue. Still not seeing any issues here. Not that it's god's gift to CRNA schools, but I don't think it deserves all this negative publicity.

So there are plenty of opportunities to do hearts, peds (and not just ENT peds), thoracic, cranis, OB, major ortho, etc.? Also CVLs, epidurals, spinals, blocks? Or are we looking at a situation where despite being used to run your own room, including overtime hours, "interns" are NOT getting an adequate experience in 'all kinds of cases', and/or are NOT placing all the CVLs, epidurals, spinals and blocks that an appropriate mix of cases would provide opportunities for?

Either the plaintiffs are disgruntled students simply upset because they had to work hard and long during clinicals and now see $$$$ dancing in front of them...OR.....they were required to run their own rooms and DID NOT receive an appropriate mix of cases since they were scheduled according to staffing needs rather than according to their educational needs. I am having a hard time believing that students who were given the independence of their own room AND assigned to rooms according to their educational needs AND were instructed in and directed to the placement of all the CVLs, epidurals, spinals and blocks for their patients, would turn around and file this lawsuit. Most students would sell their left kidney (well maybe THAT is a bit dramatic) for clinical experience like that, not sue over it. So SOMETHING is amiss here.

Originally Posted by bgcornel

Seems pretty spot on, just needs to add a little blurb to catch the COA's attention about students forging case numbers under duress and the cookie would crumble. It'll probably come out at trial though. I think their business model has come back to bite them. You can only put other groups out of business for so long by offering bottom dollar pricing then using the students to make up the difference.

I just heard about the school and read the postings. What will happen to the school and current students at this point? Will the school shut down and the current students be dismissed?

Originally Posted by Toad

I just heard about the school and read the postings. What will happen to the school and current students at this point? Will the school shut down and the current students be dismissed?

Whoa there speedy. At this point NOTHING is about to happen to the school or the students. Someone has merely filed a lawsuit asking for money damages. There is a LONG way to go before any determination as to the validity of the claims in the lawsuit under the law. And even if the plaintiff wins every argument made in their complaint, it would not cause the school to be ordered to be closed and the students dismissed.

Originally Posted by gregsto

So there are plenty of opportunities to do hearts, peds (and not just ENT peds), thoracic, cranis, OB, major ortho, etc.? Also CVLs, epidurals, spinals, blocks? Or are we looking at a situation where despite being used to run your own room, including overtime hours, "interns" are NOT getting an adequate experience in 'all kinds of cases', and/or are NOT placing all the CVLs, epidurals, spinals and blocks that an appropriate mix of cases would provide opportunities for?

Either the plaintiffs are disgruntled students simply upset because they had to work hard and long during clinicals and now see $$$$ dancing in front of them...OR.....they were required to run their own rooms and DID NOT receive an appropriate mix of cases since they were scheduled according to staffing needs rather than according to their educational needs. I am having a hard time believing that students who were given the independence of their own room AND assigned to rooms according to their educational needs AND were instructed in and directed to the placement of all the CVLs, epidurals, spinals and blocks for their patients, would turn around and file this lawsuit. Most students would sell their left kidney (well maybe THAT is a bit dramatic) for clinical experience like that, not sue over it. So SOMETHING is amiss here.

I'm not sure how other schools handle the case/skill requirements necessary to graduate, but the way it works at Wolford is each time you perform a certain skill, it is documented. If you insert a Swan or a CVP, it's charted. You take "credit" for it when you log your case. Can it be falsified? I guess. I just figured students are intelligent enough to realize that falsifying skills necessary to graduate will place you at a disadvantage. At any point in the clinical period, you can request to rotate to another clinical area to receive more specific types of cases. If you need more trauma or peds, you can rotate to a facility on the East coast or up to the pan handle. I take full responsibility of making sure I get the experiences I need, and if other schools will spoon feed it to you, kudos for you.

The "two students at the head of bed" thing is getting old. The program is front loaded, but throughout the first year students are required to observe and learn how to use the anesthesia machine and equipment. Anytime you see two students at the head of bed, it's a senior student in clinical running the case and a junior just watching and asking questions to smooth out the transition to clinicals. The junior DOES NOT take credit for the case. If by chance there are two seniors in a year, it's normally because one senior finished early and wants to observe rather than go home and study for exams/boards. To reiterate what another poster said, I don't think Wolford is god's gift to CRNA schools, but it's annoying when people make claims completely backed up by disgruntled internet users. Back to studying...cheers!

I have worked with plenty of wolfird grads and all have told me they falsified info to graduate.. It's good your protecting your school but it's a mill school pumping out a 100 grads a year come on.. Stop defending what's obvious

Originally Posted by Ihavegas

I have worked with plenty of wolfird grads and all have told me they falsified info to graduate.. It's good your protecting your school but it's a mill school pumping out a 100 grads a year come on.. Stop defending what's obvious

Not to mention you should see some of the special students coming through there.... Some of these students you know wouldn't get accepted to any other program in the country. I have seen plenty of students from there that I would never let touch my family or my closest friends.

Originally Posted by dmoney

Being owned by MDA's may sound horrible (I guess), but they are good teachers. There are plenty of opportunities to work independently and from what I have seen so far the MDA's are there to assist when it is needed, not to run the show. I think in the end it doesn't really matter who owns the school but how it is run. It is not much different from saying a group of anesthesia providers is bad because they are CRNA's. The question that should be asked is how well do they do their job.
There are plenty of opportunities to do all kinds of cases. And really, if you took a research class, you would know that without some type of representative sample- data from a couple random people are really meaningless. Judging a school through the internet is really just an exercise in futility.
Accreditation- It is in the process. The school has not been denied, but it just takes time to get the application through the process. Regardless of any accreditation, at the end of the day you do not need regional accreditation to get a job as a CRNA. And isn't that the main goal here? Plus, when it comes to taking school to the next level, the truth is that schools are made to make money. I know of only one person who applied to further their education who was denied due to lack of regional accreditation (and it was from another school in FL, possibly with a bone to pick lol). Other than that students have continued their education elsewhere without issue. Still not seeing any issues here. Not that it's god's gift to CRNA schools, but I don't think it deserves all this negative publicity.

There is a lot in this post.












Sent from my iPhone using GasTalk

The 'claims' I made came form 6 former Wolford students not random internet users.

Lucky you if these things didnt happen to you but dont pretend that your experience is everyones from there, it isnt.

Originally Posted by MeTheRN

I'm not sure how other schools handle the case/skill requirements necessary to graduate, but the way it works at Wolford is each time you perform a certain skill, it is documented. If you insert a Swan or a CVP, it's charted. You take "credit" for it when you log your case. Can it be falsified? I guess. I just figured students are intelligent enough to realize that falsifying skills necessary to graduate will place you at a disadvantage. At any point in the clinical period, you can request to rotate to another clinical area to receive more specific types of cases. If you need more trauma or peds, you can rotate to a facility on the East coast or up to the pan handle. I take full responsibility of making sure I get the experiences I need, and if other schools will spoon feed it to you, kudos for you.

The "two students at the head of bed" thing is getting old. The program is front loaded, but throughout the first year students are required to observe and learn how to use the anesthesia machine and equipment. Anytime you see two students at the head of bed, it's a senior student in clinical running the case and a junior just watching and asking questions to smooth out the transition to clinicals. The junior DOES NOT take credit for the case. If by chance there are two seniors in a year, it's normally because one senior finished early and wants to observe rather than go home and study for exams/boards. To reiterate what another poster said, I don't think Wolford is god's gift to CRNA schools, but it's annoying when people make claims completely backed up by disgruntled internet users. Back to studying...cheers!

A bit much in the negative comments about Wolford students. I work with them all and they are hard working, very bright and eager learners. The experience described is nonsense. They work in very dynamic case settings and their skills and knowledge are very competent. There are disgruntled people in every program, and this one is no exception. However, the students that are educated here are definitely not subpar. These students are getting a great education and do get all there skill sets. They do many regionals and central lines. The peds is weaker due to big peds cases done at
Children hospitals. This week we had several peds emergencies that provided the students with a great learning experience. I think the discussion here is very interesting, but when the bashing started, I just had to comment. These are great students and they deserve to be supported. Think what you want, but have you personally worked with any of these grads?